Ou Virak (Future Forum): Building New Thinkers for Cambodia

In this first episode of RightsStarters, Rupert Abbott travels to Battambang, Cambodia, to meet Ou Virak, founder of Future Forum and one of the country’s leading public intellectuals.

Virak shares his remarkable journey, from being born under the Khmer Rouge, to growing up through conflict and displacement, years in refugee camps and eventual resettlement in the United States, before returning to Cambodia to help shape its future.

The conversation explores how these experiences shaped his thinking, his work in human rights, and ultimately his decision to found Future Forum: a think tank focused not just on ideas, but on building a new generation of Cambodian thinkers.

Together, they discuss what it takes to start something new in a complex environment, the importance of culture and critical thinking, and why lasting change depends on people as much as policy.

Show Notes

In this episode, we cover:

• Ou Virak’s childhood in Cambodia during and after the Khmer Rouge
• Life in refugee camps and resettlement in the United States
• Returning to Cambodia and working in human rights
• Founding Future Forum and building new thinkers
• Lessons on starting and sustaining an organisation

About Ou Virak

Ou Virak is the founder of Future Forum, a Cambodian think tank focused on policy research and developing a new generation of thinkers. He previously served as President of the Cambodian Center for Human Rights.

Links

• Future Forum: https://www.futureforum.asia/
• Ou Virak: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ou_Virak

Note: This episode includes an automatically generated transcript, which may contain errors, particularly with non-English language and names.

About RightsStarters

RightsStarters is a podcast about turning ideas into action, through conversations with founders shaping social change.

Hosted by Rupert Abbott, founder of RightsStart Alliance.

Follow the podcast to hear future episodes.

Learn more: https://www.rights-start.org

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

I mean bottom bong Cambodia. And we're about to meet with Uverat, who's the founder of the future forum think tank, who's also the president of the Cambodian Center for Human Rights. And he's going to tell his story on how he became a leading activist and public intellectual in Cambodia. And was the founder of a think tank, which is not just creating new ideas, but new thinkers. And in doing so, changing Cambodia. Welcome to Right Starters. Great to see you. Good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us today. It's really great to be here together. So could you just introduce yourself and tell us a bit about where we are and why?

SPEAKER_04 1:32

I'm Virak. Last name. We are now in Baden Bong. Not very far from where I grew up, but as a child, particularly during the early years of my life. We're in Baden Bong, Street 1.5, interestingly.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

So you grew up here then? This is your kind of hometown?

SPEAKER_04 1:52

This is my hometown. Lots of early years uh memories.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

But look, before we dig into those, and we're sitting here in a lovely street actually, shop houses, we're at a cafe. Katray Katroc, is that how you pronounce it? It's the basket. There's a name for the basketball. The basketra. The basket in Khmer, and some water's coming, but not the coffee yet. Al Contran. So maybe before we get into your background, can you just tell us a little bit about the future forum, the think tank you founded, what you're working on at the moment, and we'll go deeper later on.

SPEAKER_04 2:27

Well, the future forum is a think tank, but we do not want to be traditional in many ways. Our focus is on policy research, but also we are trying to explore new policy ideas, particularly in a country like Cambodia, where debates uh are pretty are very either limited or restricted. Exploring new policy ideas is a way to basically push for uh creative thinking, for evidence-based policy uh development uh decisions, uh but also we're trying to influence public policy. And and the way to do it for us is through being a platform, working and empowering and nurturing young researchers, young Cambodian researchers. These are the creative voice with the energy, but they're also ambitious and enthusiastic and working with passion. It's about the people coming up with the case. Well, well, you were trying to generate new ideas, particularly new ideas for a new Cambodia. We had a Cambodia was known as for we had the Year Zero, right? The Khmer Rouge. So a lot of the things we have seen now start over, although we haven't we didn't really start over. A lot of the memories, a lot of the culture, a lot of the history has always been entrenched, it's always continued. It just it was horrendous dark period. And then we then pick up where we were left off again, uh struggling. But in in that sense, the to generate new ideas and pushing for new vision for the country is you need to do how to generate ideas, you need really a lot of new thinkers. Not just not just one or two amazing intellectuals, leaders, opinion leaders. But we need hundreds of them. And we need a lot of people doing a lot of different things all at once. And it all looks to be chaotic, but it's there's a lot of creativity in the process, but also there's a lot of energy and a lot of passion in the whole process.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Um Vera, coffee's just arrived, looks looks good. Flat two flat whites. Cheers to the coffee.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Cheers.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Vera, you started to touch on a bit earlier that we we're here at this cafe in in Batonbong, just actually a street along from where you grew up. Can you tell us a bit about yeah, what growing up, your journey really to doing what you're doing now?

SPEAKER_04 4:56

In the global schemes of things, I'm certain that I didn't grow up in a very uh normal kind of way. I was born during the Khmer Rouge, the first year. So that's 1975. That's 1975. None of us know my birthday. And so what's and we try to figure out the birthday and all of that, and so legally we register a different birthday, and that's happening to a lot of Cambodians. And you grew up in during that period that where basically it was a, as I said, the darkest day, one of the some of the darkest days in any human history, even in any modern human history, in any in anywhere in the world. But also then you we had a continuous conflicts and wars before that, but also post the Khmer Rouge. I grew up here. This is also part of the Western zone. So there's a lot of fighting still going on throughout the whole 1980s, throughout the whole, even at the Khmer Rouge.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

So you so you were born in 1975, and then you were here in Baton.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

The late 1970s and early 1980s, and that's when I start to remember my my childhood attending schools not very far from here. I grew up in the grandparents' home, the family's home, which is actually a huge family, in the big families. And then at one point we move to a a second floor or first floor of a small link house on street 2.5. We're on street 1.5, so basically we're two two tiny streets away from where I grew up. And we're in the center of Batterbone, and we're just close to the river. See, the street is small enough. It was big were streets that basically people use for bicycles, and back then even motorcycles were very limited, very few.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

So you've got you were with your you've got brothers.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

I have four older brothers and my mom. My dad was killed before right before I was born by the Khmer Rouge. Uh he was executed by the Khmer Rouge. The very first days of them coming to power power in the 1970 in 1975. And growing up here is very interesting. Again, I've we I witnessed and also lived through some of the harshest fighting from in the 1980s. I remember we're not very far from where we sit, is a it's an old traditional popular market called San Nan. During the 1980s, it was actually used at one point to store rice and supplies that then either feed the soldiers in the front line or get transport to Vietnam. I wasn't sure what's what happened then. And then that's one point when the the warehouse, I forgot, I think it's the warehouse next to us that was actually storage storing ammunitions. And then the the freedom fighter, the resistance forces along the border, came in all the way to town. Normally a lot of fightings actually happen along the border, not this deep, and then they came in and they put the whole thing in fire. I mean, they I guess they either fire burn the whole thing, and then there's a lot of explosions. And the whole evening, so the whole night, but you can hear explosions, and we have to basically lay very low and an explosion wouldn't happen. And you would have been what kind of eight nine? Yeah. Yeah. Seven.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

And so the freedom fighters though so they were the anti-Khmer Rouge forces.

SPEAKER_04 8:13

Yeah, and for all of us, and particularly for a kid like myself, we only have this imagination of them with long, very long hair. I think they live in the jungle, and and having long hair seems to be their go-to kind of look. And so all of them usually have long hairs, and so there's an image of them being either barbaric or also or being almost like a cowboy like. Yeah, they're supposedly their commanders would be riding horses, for example. And there's probably some truth to that, but it's also a mystical kind of imaginations of the freedom fighters. And it's very interesting because we're living in under the Vietnamese occupation, and there's a government that was actually being installed in the country called the State of Cambodia.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

So just to recap, then so Khmer Rouge took power April 1975. They were running the country for about four years. Yeah. And then Vietnamese-backed forces, Cambodian forces, top of the Khmer Rouge.

SPEAKER_04 9:17

In 1979, January 1979.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

So then you're and then so what we're talking about now is you've got the Vietnamese-backed state of Camp of Cambodia, and then you've got those who are anti-the new government. So that's Royalists.

SPEAKER_04 9:32

That's a royalists.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Also actually Khmer Rouge, right?

SPEAKER_04 9:36

And also there's another force called the Freedom Fighter, the resistant force led by a former Prime Minister Sun-sun. Yeah. And they form them and the former Khmer Rouge were the two formidable resistant forces along the border.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

So you're living here with your mum, your brothers, your uncles and my grandparents still quite healthy. Those who've survived, obviously, you lost your dad and and my uncle. Right. And so where are we?

SPEAKER_04 10:08

1980s. In the nineteen early nineteen eighties, this area, particularly in Badamong, the outskirts of Badamong, have saw I've seen huge amounts of battles and between these Vietnamese state of Cambodia forces and then the skirmishes. And also I think in the 1980s, something that I think the children nowadays wouldn't understand. Every single every single household is actually asked to have this the bamboo and you dry them. And it's hollow in inside, right? So you make that into an alarm bell. Every home needs to have that one, at least one or many. And if the authorities, if the local authorities ask you to hit it to make these noise, you have to do it. And then and first of all, it was used to alarm for people to basically go into our foxholes when there's there's the resistance force coming in. But later on it was used also to perge. So there's a lot of suspicions going on of who could be working for or being infiltrated by the resistant forces, and and there's some animosities and anger and suspicious suspicion. And so when I grew up, when we hear these things, the theory goes later on. Initially, it was actually to expecting the fighting to start or to be reaching closer to us. Later on, it was actually also then becoming a cover for purge. So you wouldn't hear if the purge happened to your neighbor because everybody's making so much noise. The whole village is so noisy, I remember. And that could happen in the middle of the night, and everybody have to do it, they have expected to do it. So I remember these little things that that you wouldn't be expecting that now.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah. So a lot of suspicion, you're not sure who you can trust. And how were your grandparents and your mom, how were they providing for you and your brothers?

SPEAKER_04 12:01

Like Cambodians are pretty resilient in many ways. We land were plentiful, post-Mayorus, particularly, with the population decline. But also you can easily catch fish and fish is everywhere. It's not difficult to actually catch fish for a living, rice to farming, but also my grandparents would be growing bean sprouts. Making bean sprouts, right? So you have to take these bean seeds and make them into sprouts, and they also know how to make it from fermented bean sprouts, very popular in the village. And my grandma would be I remember vividly in her image back then, spending a lot of time s making those fermented bean sprouts and also cooking as a for a huge extended family.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

And was your mom helping out then?

SPEAKER_04 12:45

What was the my mom later on starting to be a smuggler, and so I know I know as a as somebody who's who's whose mom had to smuggle goods from Thailand because back then it was actually illegal illegal for goods or human to actually come in or leave the country. Right. So you can't even leave the country if you choose to, you're not allowed in a company set up like that. And also goods are not allowed to come in, and of course, goods in Thailand has much higher quality, far cheaper in here. And so my mom would then smuggle, and because we have extensive family network, and also then friends and network of people, we they there's a lot of cromaries, there's a lot of trust buildings, and so she was able to smuggle a lot of the clothes, a lot of the materials needed, and sell them at the market. And that's how she's actually able was able to make money and feed and is that the market just over here that we can do that. That's not that no, sh there's a l more local market near our home, our village home. And she was actually able to make a good relatively okay uh living. And then back then a good living means you have uh enough food for everyone, right? Yes. That's if you have enough food for everyone and every single year you're able to get two fresh new clothes every single year, two, right? Two sets, two sets, a shirt and uh pants, but you're living a good life. These are not no brand names, and you just ac as long as the m the fabrics is new and you're able to get them for two special events, which is actually Pijong Ban and the Khmer New Year. Khmer New Year is always uh the most special event, and everybody prepare fresh new clothes to be coincide with that. So as long as you get that you're considered to be okay. Yeah, and we were all our family were okay because we have those, we have the food and we have those things.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

So you were born in 1975, you're living under the Khmer Rouge. You don't remember that when you were a baby.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

No, I was I was too young.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

And so we're now and we're now talking about the eighties, and actually in the early eighties there was fighting, there was suspicion. But your family were doing okay in the circumstances.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Yeah, yeah. My my aunt would be selling things in the market, trying to trade, be a trader. Yeah. And then there's a lot of imports of starting to have imports of, for example, very old and cheap motorcycle, and then selling parts. I was selling motorcycles. My my uncle was trying to smuggle motorcycles on trains, and then you had to deal with robberies and the Khmer Rouge along the way, and explosion sometime being late on on these tracks. And then they fix it and move on to they continue. And then they and they would be arms also when they smuggle these things, and and sometime my uncle would be out and about and and try to do that, and everybody's trying to make a try to survive. And so yeah, and but we were okay because we stay together and we are such an extensive family, and but we're lucky because we have a is the my grandparents are pretty pretty strong, so they he they were able to basically keep the whole family together in such a cohesive way, as a it was incredible to think back.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Yeah. And and in fact, you're you're in Baton Bomb at the moment because you were here to mark your grandma's the third anniversary of her passing.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

Yeah, they it's incredible to think about the simplicities of their lives when they how they live, and to think that actually my grandparent, both my grandma and my grandpa, lived through a period when we were under the French colonies. It was really interesting. That was actually in 19 something, right? 1900, the early 1900s, and they lived through that. And then they lived through so many changes, so many regimes, changes, and and none of that period, if you think back to Cambodian history, none of them none of that has been good for Cambodia, has not good for the people. There's always been one struggle after another, always one hardship after another. I mean, and so in that perspective, I remember my grandma grandpa would always remind us that despite all of the problems we're having now, we he's witnessing uh the longest period of peace, and he to him that was good enough. And the ability to to still put food on the table was good enough. And that was really interesting for him, but for them, but then they also was able, were able, both of them were able to live until a very old, healthy age. So how old were they when they when my grandpa passed away ten years ago, three months shy of his hundredth birthday? My grandma passed three years ago, exactly today. One hundred and I think it was one hundred or one hundred and one. I it depends on the county. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

So certainly if I kept any of that, I would be absolutely pleased. And now you so things were going okay, going back to the we're into the sort of early eighties. But you didn't stay in Batambong, did you? So what what changed?

SPEAKER_04 17:45

So 1984, there was actually a in even starting from 1982, 1983, there's a lot of draft is going on for one, for men, young men to go into the military to fight the ongoing war, but two, to also forcing families, including men, young, old women, also to go into the jungle and clear as part of this K-5 program. And say a bit about that. What's the what was the case? K-5, there's a K it's actually it's not the word K, it's actually come from the Khmer alphabet Gore, Sko Pram. And that was basically an attempt to basically create a buffer zone because there's a lot of landmines being built in the jungles, and it was really difficult to clear freedom fighters along the border.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

So the landmines that have blighted Cambodia, actually a lot of those were put down in in the eighties.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

In the eighties, particularly along along these western front, because that's where the strongholds of the Khmer Rouge and the freedom fighters in the Royalists.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

So this is near the border with Thailand. This is the Khmer.

SPEAKER_04 18:47

Which is basically where we are, right? But yeah, most of these borders used to be part of Baramong. Thailand used to be part of Baramong. That was actually a Khmer Rouge stronghold until 1998. Yeah, even when there was actually a peace agreement, it still continued to be held by former Khmer Rouge, still by mostly the control or at least influenced by because through that peace deal, still mostly controlled by former Khmerouge. So by Lin Malai, who's still in Baden Bong back then, and Batamian Chase, Czapon.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

But as well as as well as being as well as the state of Cambodia and the resistant forces looking to draft young men into their and boys actually into their forces, into their military.

SPEAKER_04 19:33

There was also this attempt to get young men and in fact everyone, including women to by clearing the jungles, which is infested with landmines, also infested with malaria, mosquito carrying mosquitoes and all kinds of other diseases. And so a lot of people die during that period, and I remember.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

So clearing the jungles, just so I understand, clearing the jungles, because that's where Khmerusion would be would be hiding and escaping to.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

For some odd reason, that was the policy. And I remember there's so many people who died because also when they caught the malaria from the border, they also brought the malaria here, and then mosquito would beat them and then pass it on. I one of my cousins passed away or was were uh died from malaria at the age of two or three years old. My uncle got the malaria, almost died. Nobody expected him to survive that. One of my uncles. And also I remember funerals. You know how funerals used to be or has always been very loud in Cambodia? Funeral and weddings are the two loudest events in in Cambodia, and they love to have these loud speakers blasting as a way to announce to everyone.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

You have to be a bit careful where you're sat, right? Because if you sat next to the speaker, you you you'll end up going deaf at this point.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

My goodness. And at that period, I remember, and I was too young, but I just overheard adults talking about it, and I remember they they prevent people from having loud funerals. They stop the loud speaker completely. So anybody can the people still can have funerals, but not without any loud speaker, which is very uncambodians, and luckily we brought that back. I'm not so sure it's lucky or unlucky, but we now have back. And as you can see, this morning at my grandma's uh uh third anniversary of her passing, it was really loud. But so in some way it's comfort to have these loud speakers is also a bit really loud. But back then in the 1980s, uh this there was so widespread that loud speaker was not even allowed, was not allowed for funeral. But just give you one in some of the these nuances that are often not included in the in the history book, because also you have to live through it and you have to pay attention to new these little nuances. But it was a period also when there's a lot of drafting, and my mom, because we didn't have a father, she was the only adult in the house, in the household, so she had to fight Back to push back against drafting her or anyone from the family to you're one of five boys, yeah, five sons, no girls. And in the and she was she succeeded in pushing back against the K5. But then this and it was actually in by 1980, 83, 84, my oldest brother is now reaching a drafting age. And my second oldest is also not very far away. And my mom decided that we need to go to the we need to leave the country and then go to the refugee camp. And that is to escape the country through landmine. Also escaping meaning you're not allowed to leave, and if you get caught, then you'll be imprisoned and likely being torture. And so you have to really to to be smuggled out of the country. And this is where also my personal kind of image of the word trafficking is very different because I would still have I would understand in the work I've done, I have done the work have done and continue to do on on human rights and trafficking. At the same time, I have this really deep personal level personal image of what trafficking could mean in a positive way also, and because we were traffic and we were lucky we were trafficked and helped by by smugglers and by traffickers along the border that that assist us in actually getting us out of the country. And your mum sound just sounds like an incredible woman. Because also if you look at just surviving the Khmer Rouge is one thing that's in in itself is incredible, extremely incredible. So five boys all intact. We've lost members of the families, and my oldest, my second oldest, for example, came pretty close to passing in the Khmer during the Khmer Rouge. But we were able to survive it. But also to to survive the 1980s, it was incredible. And then the whole refugee camp experience, escaping the country through landmines, there's a lot of bandits and banditries going around along those border areas with no man's land and anything go, and anybody that tried to escape the country likely to carry with them all of their possessions, whatever they have, including gold that they might be having, as savings or any of that. So there's a lot of banditry, and it's so common for people who who escaped the country is to be robbed along those borders, including people who actually that went with us uh who also got robbed.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

So you were escaping, you when you say escaping the country, you were going to a refugee camp on the Thai border, just inside Thailand.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

No, we were initially actually settled in a military refugee camp or a military camp. So there's there's two types of refugee camps. There's actually multiple camps, uh. But then there's the one we're aiming for would be the resistant force, right? These are supported by the US, somewhat Thailand also, who's playing a role in facilitating some of that support by the Western Bloc of the Cold War. And and so that's where we're aiming for, right? And so we would be in the military camp. There's uh civilians, so in the military camp, there's also civilian family members of the military. That's where we're uh where we're going. And then we stayed there for months and then we then try to escape inside Thailand. That was actually those camps would be inside along the border, but inside Cambodia. And then we then tried to then escape into Thailand. That was another very dangerous, very dangerous journey. I I fully that I remember every single thing, including the whole journey from Cambodia to the camps, the camps alive, escaping wars when these the military from Cambodia, inside Cambodia would be bombarding the camps, including near civilian areas. I've seen bodies being carried and from the front lines and the fightings and in German and all of that, and then well so that's another and that's another kind of thing. So then you have to uh endure that for about four or five, four years or so.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

So you went to the refugee are we talking nineteen eighty four four, nineteen eighty-four. So you were in the you were in one refugee camp, then you went to another refugee camp. Yep, and inside Thailand. In j just inside Thailand, and how long were you there for?

SPEAKER_04 26:16

See, the fear was actually to to end up actually in the in the camps that would be controlled by the Khmer Rouge, for example. Because then you can then it would be difficult to escape that once more again. And they would draft you and send you to fight. They might not, but we just don't know and we wouldn't want to be there. So that was actually there's a lot of these little things that you have to make smart good decisions, and mom somehow know about it. Then they she knew the connections and get help from and we were lucky in that way. We got help inside the country. There's a lot of and you can sense that the how to say this, there's a lot of people with that humanities who they might be fighting on the Cambodian side. I remember it was actually the soldier who fought on this side who actually helped us to escape Cambodia.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

And it was also then the soldier who fought along the resistance fighter who actually helped us on the other end. So in that sense, we get help from both sides of the fights, of the fightings for us to be able to escape, and and we it was a miracle to be able to do that. But yeah, then we ended up actually in the in a Thai refugee camp, considered we as displaced people.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

And actually, just as we're speaking, a Red Cross pickup truck is driving past.

SPEAKER_04 27:26

Yeah, it was the Red Cross, it was actually the human uh the UNACR, the hum but the UN Human Refugees Commission. Yeah, the United Nations. High Commission Refugees. That's what stick in my head when I was young, I was younger. And back then I didn't know all of these international conventions and treaties and different laws governing all of these things. And when you're in the refugee camp as a child, refugees consider to be displaced people, you have to run from both the bandits that came to the camp pretty regularly. Regularly, I'm talking about at some point weekly, and they commit some horrendous atrocities along the along throughout the whole period. We had to also escape the Thai military who's also generally prone to commit a lot of abuses along in there. We had to also then find food because one strategy is to prevent refugees to go into Thailand is actually to choke supply, choke food supply mostly.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Who was choking the food supply?

SPEAKER_04 28:29

The military. So when you're in the camps, food price would be twenty, fifty times higher than outside of the camp. So you can if you can access a Thai village, for example, the price would be twenty, thirty, forty times cheaper.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

And how were so food prices were high? How were people treated in the camps? Are there any if you got any sort of vivid memories? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 28:50

As I said, if we're considered to be displaced people, then you got no protection. But also the military is actually the Thai military is after you. They want to crack at you and then take you back and throw you in the middle of the either up at the border and then force you to come back. So why did they want to do that? The policy was actually trying to encourage disc discourage refugees to go into Thailand. But also the broader strategic policy of the West would be to actually create a buffer, right, to prevent communism from spreading to Thailand. The best buffer would be more Cambodian civilians staying along the border, on Cambodia side. But also then young men like my brothers would then join the resistant force actually preventing the communist expansion, also bring about the collapse of the Eastern side. That's strategy. Is that so and so what did you see in the camp there? You said Yeah, so there's a lot of that. There's a lot of abuses, there's a lot of abuses by the Thai military. So the idea was actually to drag this guy throughout the whole camp as a reminder to not mess up with the Thai military, for example, and I stick with children's buttons. And so I would witness all of that throughout the whole camp period. And then one point where we were considered to be refugees, we were given granted refugee status. And so when life improves significantly, improved, meaning that we are we're okay now. We are not we're not being chased.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

So UNHCR recognized your Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

In the old days, the I can tell you in as uh from the lens of a child, in the old days we don't know any UNHCR, which is no this the white people, but also we know that when they come into the camp, particularly this one mystical lady called the white-haired lady, and we call them white-haired grandma. I think children's probably seeing any adults old enough as grandma, and we call them white hair grandma, we call ye saw.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

But also, whenever she came to inside the camp, he the whole military behaved and we were treated just normally, and that was somehow both mysterious, mystical, but also miracle, miraculous. I was like, how that has to happen?

SPEAKER_04 31:09

And we were waiting for the white-haired ladies to come, always come and rescue us and just come to the camps. And we would be extremely happy to hear that she's coming. And I would be, I remember, I would be chasing the cars as a kid, as a boy, for absolutely no reason at all. Because if there's no visitors in the camp, you can't leave, there's no visitors, and so any strangers that have the powers to come in the camp and leave the camp, that's somehow incredible. It's just you cannot imagine that's that people could be leaving the camp.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

That's not to be allowed to do that. Then you did leave the camp. So what happened? You were given refugee status.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

Yeah, and then we were accepted to resettle in the US. We moved to another camp called a transition camp or transit, and we were there because they need to check the probably for contagious disease and different things. My mom had an operation for fibroid at one of the type hospitals in Bangkok. We had a decent life in that campus. No health female, no, no support. Most of the refugees were treated as almost a criminal. There's definitely a desire to push back. But also, when we were there, still the US has already committed to bring us, but they're providing more support.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

So how many of the thousands of in campus?

SPEAKER_04 32:28

In our in the camp in Kawanang, there's at any moment there's about forty to fifty thousand refugees at any moment. And you just talk about years of people keep coming in and leaving. So you're looking at hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

So when are we wh where are we now? This is 1989. So you went, so you got out and you went to the club. But you were but that way you were treated better. Your mum got me in the city.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:55

We have they have movie theaters in there, we have to pay you, so it doesn't cost very much because we're now because everything's legal. So the food can be brought in from Thai farmers, for example, to to sell in the camps. And so it was it's a lot better, and the food started being provided to us probably. Not that long. It was supposed to be a transition camp for five, six months, but we end up actually staying there for longer than that for about a year and a half, a year a year and one month or so, because mom had to do that surgery, which is good, it's really good, it's really important. But also, it's part of the requirement, I think. That the health we got a health checkup, so all of us had got health checkup and all of that, and then we were settled January 13, 1989. You went to America? In California, not just any not just America, it was in California. We landed in San Francisco Airport, SFO. I remember I I still remember full well because I threw up, I had I was I had plane sick as a refugee. I wouldn't even dare to ask for water. I didn't so you don't there's a lot of these little things that you just don't from the lens of a of refugees, you don't expect much. And you don't you can't demand much. You just try to survive what you can. I grew up even in the 19 even settling in the US was not that easy. You end up actually having to that there's a coal, we didn't have access to good jackets, for example. There's a lot of these kind of basic things that we didn't we couldn't understand, some of it we couldn't afford. And so you have to really try to survive then almost on your own.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Yeah, so how was that in the US?

SPEAKER_04 34:30

You were in California in Yeah, in California. We spent uh some months with a with my aunt's family. They'd already been able to get refugees. You know, Ham Bay is about 30 kilometers, 40 kilometers from San Francisco. But it's also is a small town, but it's by the coast. Nice. And in some way, it's similar to Brighton. In some way. You're saying that because that's where I'm from in the UK. Exactly. No, but I told you when I visited Brighton, it's trying to bring back the old memories of me landing, us landing in Hamlet Bay. It was but it's Hambay smaller, but it's still by the coast. The atmosphere, the feelings of the population is very similar, I think. So did you grow up in in the US? Did you grow up there in half moon bay? No, no, we spent just a few months. It's too the cost of living is too high, but also we basically then got support from the families, and then we moved to uh we actually then rent apartments, a small apartment in very small apartments in San Jose for about a year and something, and then we decided probably at the mo at that moment, the only decision was just actually to move to a very low cost of living town, and that's called Fresno. It's one of the worst, but it's one of the cheapest places to move in. It's one of the worst in California. Unemployment is very high, it's a huge, very high seasonal unemployment, crime rate is higher than normal, homes are very cheap, so we're as food is very cheap.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

So we're into the 1990 we're into the 1990s. Yes, 1999. So you're you're about you're 15 now.

SPEAKER_04 36:09

Yeah, about 14, 15 now, and then we sat on Fresno, that's where I spend a lot of my adolescent life and and also young adult life there. And then moved back to San Jose for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

How was that program in Fred? Was that was that kind of relatively after what you'd all been through, was that kind of relatively easy or did it have its own challenges?

SPEAKER_04 36:29

No, it's relatively easy. Again, relatively, it's probably not the best place to grow up, but also in the 1990s. We're lucky because we also get the what do you call this kind of the welfare program in California was good. Right. So we were able to s basically survive relatively doing well because we have food on the table and and homes to live in. Were you welcomed? Was it we were welcome in the 1990s, but then that's also the beginning of the gangs, gang violence and drugs and stuff like that in California and LA. Compton was very popular, it was very infamous for that. Oakland was huge, but also in Fresno. And so, yeah, relatively that included young Cambodian men. A lot of Cambodians also Laocean, Vietnamese, the gangs, the Hispanics, or the Mexicans, Mexican gangs, African American or black gangs. So you've got gangs and in a lot of uh what do you call this gang violence, right? Between gangs, groups, and different groups.

SPEAKER_03 37:31

We learned to survive. Also, some of these violence we're so used to, we'll probably just learn to ignore. I'm not so sure anybody can say that.

SPEAKER_04 37:40

For example, and at one at some points where they're actually gun fights at our neighborhood, at our nearby apartment. But somehow that was nothing new. The street that we live on that's that street, for example, we're living on, and that's happening a bit regularly, maybe almost weekly, or some at one point it was almost weekly, the height of it, and you look at it just if that's gun violence, just stay in the apartment and just continue watching my TVs. And so in in a way, surviving the Khmer erosion and go and settle in California, yeah, it's not the best place to grow up in, but then relatively we've seen worse. So in that sense, it was normal. But then the gun violence happening at the community level. So when we have, for example, the celebration of the Khmer New Year, every celebration of anything that is big enough, you expect gun gang fights. And if it doesn't lead to uh shootings and death, and if it's just involving fists and rods and uh chairs, you'll be okay. You're probably gonna go to the next one. And when the signs of gang fights you just walk out of your car and leave. So you w So that's continual viol violence live on for the Cabona communities in Fresno and elsewhere. Stockton, California, Long Beach, Compton, Oakland. It's not just with us, it's just the whole US gang violence was so high in the 1980s. It was incredible.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

So this pit time obviously you went to school and then you went to university in California.

SPEAKER_04 39:13

Yeah, but by by the time I got to the university, we were able to escape some of the communities, we were able to actually move to a better neighborhood gang violence suddenly subs subside toward more toward the early 2000s. So we basically had to endure about a decade more worth of constant violence that could happen at Pagoda, at any events, at weddings, and anything. And we basically consider to me almost normal and it's just fine. And it's something that you grow to accept. And then I was able to actually get to universities and then move back to San Jose for to further to go into the graduate program.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

And at university, so you studied economics.

SPEAKER_04 39:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

And you worked in social work for Yeah for a while.

SPEAKER_04 40:03

For a while. And you were involved in the Cambodian student. I grew up in a very political family. It was also continued to monitor what's happening in the country in Cambodia. To also was very active in the Cambodian communities in Fesno. They were always involved in things like having Khmai program, after school program for Cambodian in the Pagoda events and different ceremonies and translations and supporting elderly and supporting new immigrants and all of that. So I grew up with that kind of uh setup, which is significant, which is hugely important for me. So by the time I was 16, 17, I'm really well worse in community issues and discussions and debate, but also well-worse in political development in Cambodia, and because there's a lot of that going on. Of course there's very limited information, a limited basis for many of the people there, but also many of the people there who s actively, passionately discuss these things have had had a lot of baggages of their own. And so their understanding, their perception, all of that is was very limited and very school. I was involved in the Khmer Association. I was also actively we are actively friends with the Laos. I have friends with Ms. Mong, all of that. But so the the association somehow unite because we were small in the Northeast. And so we got along quite well in in that sense. And in some ways actually a nice thing because the smaller the communities, the more you could be together, you could be more. It was that understanding, you know, mutual support. A lot of that is going on. Of course, I think that's post the gang violence between different groups and stuff like that. But in general, I think we we were lucky because we were in that period where a lot of these things were only transition, transitional, and so we actually understand and but I was the lucky generation in a way because I think the previous generation, the older ones, would probably would find it very difficult to adapt. Yeah. But also would find it very difficult to escape old narratives, old wounds, old issues. I was I was also lucky enough because I learned of all of these old things and was well worse than all of them, but also was lucky enough to be exposed to more studies and exposures and you were old enough to really understand that context, but you were young enough to then be able to go to school and university in the US. Yeah, and to also reflect on many of these many of these opinions and understandings, and to reflect on the community mentalities and their thinkings, and all of that. So it's it was but also lucky enough to survive a lot of these hardships and then learn from Edu Eider.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

What so if you look back then from let's say from let's say 1980, and you were here in Batamong, from the mid-80s, you were then in the refugee camps, late 80s into the 90s, you were you you got to the US and you you were school there, university there, you were involved in the Khmer Association and student movements. How did all of that shape you today?

SPEAKER_04 43:18

Well, it's that, but also the family. I think the family is actually the most important thing. So as I said, if you go if you've gone through that, it either breaks you or actually make you stronger. And the main ingredients to either not to not break you or to break you is the family, family cohesion, family support. But with this gang violence, you go back home and if you feel warm and comfortable and safe, then you will be stronger from it. But if you also have a broken family or lack of safe space at home, then it would be different. So in that sense, I felt that I was lucky, but also I was lucky because we debate at home. Constantly on any issue, every single day. That's very much it's almost a Socratic kind of uh learning method where I grew up learning by debating with my oldest, my older siblings.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

So despite everything that was going on, in fact, because of everything that was going on, you were constantly debating the future of Cambodia, where Cambodia is.

SPEAKER_04 44:24

We're debating everything, we're debating the US, we're debating Cambodia, we're debating what you're having for dinner. Everything. And to be the youngest, you're always the privileged because you were debating older people and you have you're forced to then catch up and grow up. And so that's the privilege. And also then I've most of the people I tend to hang out with always have always been older than me because that's my kind of comfort zone due to my older brothers. I have four older brothers all at different age. So all of that age that's older than me tend to be yeah, tend to be a lot more comfortable for me.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

So we're gonna talk about your return to Cambodia and and your work here. To finish now for your kind of story growing up, what led you to want to return to Cambodia? Half jokingly, I always said stupidity, but so there's it's And you say that because you actually you had a c you had a career in the US, you're working in social work, you felt you were making a difference there. Cambodia, if we're talking late 90s, there'd been that there was political violence still. You mentioned earlier the Khmer Rouge were actually still controlling parts of the country, but you decided you wanted to come back.

SPEAKER_04 45:35

I want to come back because I'm attracted to I'm attracted to the challenges, I'm also attracted to chaos, but also I'm a more brave than many because I lived through it and survived through it and through a lot of these things. So I came back then, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

And what's and you can and what was the sort of primary motivation for coming back?

SPEAKER_04 45:54

It's it's I don't know. I think a lot of its passion, a lot of it is continuous following the news of Cambodia. A lot of its family roots people. My view has always been because I work in social work in the US, and so I was still absolutely passionate about supporting the disadvantaged and working on the welfare of work program, for example, to try to get them so they can move up and become more independent, yeah, and then escape drug abuses and other issues, other bagages. So I'm always passionate in that kind of work. But I've but Cambodia is at a another level, right? It's another scale, which is a challenge, but also I felt do a lot more, but it's also my roots as well.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:43

But also my families are constantly talking about and monitoring and discussing development in in Cambodia. So it was one of those a lot of com combinations of a lot of things. So you visited in 98, but then you returned in 2003. So I returned to at the end of 2003 to see if I actually couldn't survive. And I said, look, I can survive. I survived many things. I survived all of these regimes in the camps, and but also I survived California as a teenager. So I felt like I've I probably can survive. And so I came with absolutely nothing guaranteed, with no plan. I just I was had an open mind. I was willing to do anything, I was trying to do anything just to see. I was trying to learn as much as I can. I was not crazily ambitious, and so I was trying my best to see what kind of things I could do that have the greatest impact.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

So you came back to Cambodia, 2003, you worked out that you could survive here, you wanted to stay here, you wanted to contribute, and tell us how you got from there then in 2003 to where you are today leading Future Forum to 2025, which you actually established ten years ago in 2015.

SPEAKER_04 47:57

When they came back in the end at toward the end of 2003, and then they yeah, I figured out I could survive. Things are were simple back then, it was very intriguing history, but also complicated history. Cambodia is a very complicated country, very complicated society, complicated history, but also things were so simple in many of these villages you visited and the people you talk to. So I decided to come back. So I basically went back, packed up, came back and get a try-secure a lecture job. And if if you know the history of Cambodia, that's the most flexible things to sort of to survive on. And I got offered that job and was able to do that for a year and a half or so, almost two years, and then I also was and that's part of that's part of that's part of Cambodia's new education system that has to be rebuilt. It has to be completely rebuilt, but also we need to bring other people from abroad to to really bring that initial phase of education, educating the the young Cambodian population. I was really happy with that role, lecturing in the university in economics, but also in political science. And then in 2005, I joined the Cambodian Center of Human Rights purposefully. I love some of the work the center was doing, particularly with public forum, doing organizing many of these public debates and discussions on human rights and development in the most I mean throughout the whole country, but even in the most remote parts of the country. Very difficult to access. And that was actually another coffee's arrived. Thank you. And that was really important for me. And also it was my ticket to number one, the crazy amount of adventures involved in actually going out and doing all of these things, the impact, but also uh learning for me. It was the most important thing. I should just be everywhere in the whole country, particularly in in places where it was very difficult to access on your own. I was an NGO, so we're What were some of the issues that you were working on? Abuses, governance issue, corruption, discrimination, land grabs, social problems, the justice systems, all kinds of different issues. But also you have regular issues, difficulties in actually keep getting food on the table or finding making money, uh a lot of these issues. But that was actually my biggest passion, is actually really to connect to to the grassroots as much as I can. And so I joined the organization with that in mind. The fact that the organization also has radio and a lot of the talks and the discussions, I then was able to do that. And you were advocacy director. Yeah, I was ad advoc advocacy director, and then I was able then to lead the organization, rebuild organization in 2007 with the ideas of actually leaving that and found a think tank, uh future forum.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

So what where had that we worked together? I we we had to work at the CCH5, and then I came back in 2008 and worked with you. And but already then you were leading this important human rights organization nationally. It wasn't it wasn't always safe. It was a difficult context at times, but even then I remember you had this idea around a think tank but working with young people, new thinkers.

SPEAKER_04 51:20

So I realized even when I was lecturing in the University, but also more importantly, when I was actually going to the field in these public forums in the most most remote villages and talking to people, to villages who might not even have access to education or information. I was hoping to bridge that, right? How do I really expand the knowledge and critical thinking and understanding and broaden that understanding in a creative way? And how do I do that outside of the classroom, outside of the university? How do I get that to the wider audience?

SPEAKER_01 52:00

And why was it needed?

SPEAKER_04 52:01

Why did you what the whole country needs more knowledge and more information and more understanding? And also to improve, you need advocacy, you need champions, you need people to advocates, you need critical thinkers, you need and analysts, you need an analytical thinker, you need creative thinker, because the country is very much constrained. There's a lot of constraints, there's a lot of issues, there's a lot of limitations, and you have to really apply creativities, otherwise you're not gonna have much impact. And so the question has always been in my at the back of my mind when I was even working at CCHR, and we were one of the most well-known organizations in the whole country. I I became almost accidentally became one of the most well-known human rights activists in the country. It probably does. And because I worked through sensitive issues, some of the most sensitive issues, I was always on the front line. I was also working on taking on even the most sensitive cases, but also I think even more importantly, is not those big pro high profile cases that we took on, which we did, but more importantly, which I'm still proud until today, was actually working on the very principal cases. For example, when the public sentiment was, for example, against the mistrust of ethnic Vietnamese, for example, we took a principal stand and spoke spoke out against that. And I got a lot of deaths for some of the stuff I we work on. And those are very critical because it's not popular, but because somebody needs to say it. Somebody also needs to take a very principled human rights uh position on many of these issues, including development issues. It's not purely about development, it's about taking a very principled issues to ensure that that even the minorities have a chance. Even the smallest voice, even the weakest voice will still have voice, still have a chance. So that's that was the the the principle I was advocating, and became because of that I've I'm still continue to be proud of the work we have done, the organization we have b rebuilt and continue to now grow. So th that's a good memory, but also I work as a as a during a period when there's significant transition from the night 2005 till 2040. Kimburi has seen huge transition, particularly the most important one was the 2013 election, also the protests afterward as well. Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. Yeah. Yeah, and there was also an interesting period, but also those the election and the protest, the following protests, were more signified a more a broader societal change, right? Young generations, young people who were born post-Kmairouge, post-war, people who young people who who's no longer just satisfied with food on the table, who probably want more equality, more say, more freedom of speech. But also they're probably now questioning the future of the country in a broader sense. They are now wanting to bring back arts and music and fashions and having different tastes. You would imagine we would never have really when we were here twenty years ago, you and I, we couldn't go in anywhere. It's very rare where we have access to lattes and cappuccino. This is this is now this democratization of cappuccino is an amazing thing to witness over the past.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

And we sat here and then you've got these murals street art. Yes, it's very creative. These independent cafes, it's and an alleyway, and a small street. Yeah. Young people who were here earlier enjoying enjoying the coffee. You you can feel it's a young country. It's a country that is changing.

SPEAKER_04 55:56

It's a young country, but also it's a country that's changing, but it's still I think our roots Cambodians are very creative. If you look at the Arsenal Hunk or what, right? And so somehow it's coming back. And there's no other place more so that has seen more the creative side than Bad Mong, which is where we're sitting now. And so it's intriguing, and Badamong is the art capital of the country in some way. And so it's got to be the creative capital in the country. I think there's a sense of that, and there's a sense of reminiscing that old tradition from the 1960s, from the from the and so I think that's very critical.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

You were saying that you've seen over the last kind of ten years or so that young people, the new generation who actually didn't grow up during the Khmer Rouge or the war, and and are actually looking forward rather than looking back, that they're thinking about the future of the country. And indeed, think tank you founded is called the future forum. Yes. You started it in 2015. Why did you call it the future forum and what are you trying to achieve?

SPEAKER_04 57:04

Well, there's there's multiple reasons why I want to start a think tank. And there's one one reason is that I felt that in the work that we've done, or I was involved with in in at the Computing Center of Human Rights, we were reactive in some way, right? We were reacting to events, we're working on events, we're working on cases. We try to basically putting out fires, the thinking is how do you really bring as many people along as possible? Because I was I felt I felt that there needs to be more critical thinkers, but also more analytical thinkers. I that was the idea. Second, the NGO world, the donors world was a temporary thing. There needs to be a transition where there needs to be more ownership on the debate and discussions and proposals for where the country is heading and how we're going to do that. And that ownership was what I felt was a bit missing. And that agency was really crucial in in the work we do at Future Forum. And to do that, we then need to work with a lot of young people investing in that and investing in the long term. How do you really support the capacity but also bring them along? But at the same time highlight these profiles, these voices so then they would become champions and rock stars of policy of public policy world, and therefore influence would be broader but also is much more vibrant, allowing for differences in opinions, allowing for nuances, allow the debate or the shaping of the narrative or the future or the vision for the future to continue to be vibrant but molded by young educated Cambodians themselves. That was the mission that we work that's the mission we we I have, and I felt that's missing. And the reason I call it Future Form because it's basically because I can tell you honestly, because I'm I've been workshop out, because I've been attending a lot of workshops and in most hotels, and I felt that many of these things, many of these discussions and debates and panels, the the one connecting themes is challenges and opportunities. But in most of these workshops, all discussions will be stuck with challenges and problem statements, and then that will be continue until the end of the day, and then we pack up, and then we organize another workshop to discuss challenges and opportunities, and then the whole thing on repeat. And I felt like we need to stop doing that, and so we need to look at the future and think and really paint the future that the young people themselves want to see, and then discuss a way to get there, right? Which is really solution-oriented. But we and then therefore problem statement and challenges and all of these things would then just be on the background, but not on the highlight of the work that the young people need to do. But also in the current context, in the restrictive context. Creativity is needed, but also creativity, creativity is not just in policy, but creativity is in the approach. How are we going to do that and keep the young people safe? How are we going to do that and keep the young people energetic? And how are we going to do that and not kill the passions of the young of the young people and their creativities and their energies? And so that's the thinking. If you talk about the future, the level of energy is actually much higher. You can see light bulbs, you can see that voila moments, you can see aha moment, and a lot of that is actually fueling energy. And if you do it in the community, you know, if you do it in a way that they then they share with this that that culture with so many other young people who who then start to think this way, then there's that's a level of community, a level of support that then together they can achieve far greater things. And what do you mean by doing it in the community? What does that mean? So the two things that we do is what we call the fellowship, which is actually nurturing, coaching, uh, training, supporting as much as we can, platforming, allowing young people to come to to do all of those things, and then building the champions, right? They themselves would be the end goal, right? Getting more young people who are much more capable, who developing ideas and all of that. It's not just the ideas, but the people who have the capacity to develop ideas and pushing the boundary a bit. I think that's the fellowship program. But then if to do it in a long-lasting way, but also to allow them to grow after the fellowship program, we developed a community program, which then provide a beautiful, cool space where they can come in and hang out and brew their own cappuccino, and they can have their own debates and discussion, organize their own events, kick-starting their own initiatives and all of that. And we are basically becoming we we provide that support infrastructure. Some sometimes some financial support from the donors that were able to allow us to do that. But often it's actually just the hub, just the space, just the safe space, the creative space, but also the community, because then they would then be able to bounce ideas and so by community, we're talking a community of researchers, young community of researchers, but it's not just young, all included, but mostly young. But also, if we have enough alumni or the young researchers who are who went through our program, eventually they're developing a culture and the way of thinking. And once that's there and the number is significant enough, which is now by now is very significant enough, we can bring in more people and they will then be influenced by our culture and they will then join our community. And that's what we're trying to do now, is to expand that program, to expand the network, but also to expand the culture, because many of the young people who finish our program continue on to do policy work in different government institutions, different levels of governments, but also in embassies and organizations and human rights organizations, labor unions, and all of that. So we're quite happy with that. But I think we're trying to still continue to bring them back to a shared community space and community network where then they can still continue to engage with each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

So, as well as that long-term cultural change in terms of the way of thinking, have you seen some kind of shorter term evidence of impact, whether it's particular ideas that have been developed and then taken on or so the way we're doing it is that we do a lot of small things with small concrete ideas with so many people.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:01

That's the strategy. And by doing that it's chaotic, but also actually it's not as chaotic because all of them share a similar approach, similar thinking, similar philosophy, similar moral camp compass. And in that sense, it's not that chaotic. It's actually quite easy to see. So there's method to the chaos. There's method to the chaos. Yeah. And that has been intriguing to see, and something that I only envisioned in the past when I found the organization, nervously, thinking that many of these things could be just in my head and it might not happen. And now when it's time to see it in real life, it's incredible, it's amazing, it's fulfilling in a way, but no, but it's credible. So the impact has been huge, it's been significant. Many of it's quiet at work. When they become technocrat, young technocrats in different ministries, for example, they bring the culture, they bring this way of thinking, push the boundaries in a positive way by looking forward and not not fighting the old system. So our model our mo model is not to fight the old system, but to create something, a new visionary, a new model, a new system, and work toward that. And so they do it in a safe way, but also in a impactful way, and but they do it everywhere. They do it everywhere, right? In all places. So you look at some of these examples when we look at LGBT fellows who then became policy thinkers and analysts, they can work on that issue, whether it's equal marriage or pushing policies to fight discrimination, for example. We work on urban planning, traffic jams, some of it's pedestrianizing the riverside, for example, in Phnom Penh.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

So that's yeah, because that's something I think very impactful. I saw that recently, so that's that's great. There's the now the riverside, which was always quite busy with traffic, is uh weekends is pedestrianized. So that's and that and the atmosphere.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:00

Of young people there to be we did an exhibition a few years ago, got very popular. On the video, ribside. It was really specific. It happened. We pushed there, was it was one simple article, for example, we produced hundreds and hundreds of different commentaries and articles and analysis publishing in various media outlets. This one simple article was fighting against cars for plumping, right? So the title of that is actually plumping should be designed for people, not for cars. We got shared so widely. And there's tractions, people starting to understand that expanding the roads so cars can move was not the right solution for the city, for example. But one the way we do it, with an ultimate human rights goal of number one, democratizing the front point street, but also by doing that, then you're also then starting to see that trigger down to other cities, right? Other towns. We try to equal the playing field, for example. Why do we give the rights away to more cars and design the whole city so cars can then move, continue to move when people most Cambodians on motorcycle, on scooters, and bicycles, there's people who can walk. So we're trying to challenge the way the city, the aims of the city itself, right? The underlying philosophy of the city itself. And by doing that, once we're able to get people to see a new how the city could be, which is very difficult to see, because to to repaint the whole the city in new light, but you have to get to a point where a lot more people start to be able to visualize it, which we help them by visualizing through 3D, through other artwork. When they are starting to visualize it and start to say that's actually quite desirable, then we already have enough traction, enough support, and then we're gonna see some changes, some possi see possible changes. Now, can you trce it to our work? Now one is yes, probably. Number two is you don't want to overdo it because that's also could undermine adoptions of these ideas because you want ownership of others who have more powers to implement you want others to take ownership. Yes, no, you want others to take ownership when that's necessary and often it is necessary. So we always stay humble with this our approach, but also we're a bit more playful in that sense because we don't want to take too seriously the impact. But I can see impact to be honest, I with the work we've done over the past ten years. I've seen impact in so many ways in so many places. And all happen without any singular one mega projects or few mega projects, which all happen in a very vibrant small way. And that's sustainable, and that's much more sustainable, but more importantly, the rock stars or the champions are multiple hundreds of young Cambodians we work with, and that's much more important than myself being the hero or anybody else being the hero.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

One very loud motorbike that goes past.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:11

And so that's the philosophy of future forum, the philosophy, the mission, but also the culture we are we are building.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:19

So let's really focus now on the kind of the practical, the nitty-gritty of founding Future Forum. So what would you say are the were the key ingredients that helped you get Future Forum off the ground?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:39

When I founded Future Forum in 2015, I was already privileged enough with the profiles, with the connections, with the trust of many people, with the broader trust of many people, the reputation as a print as a person principle, as a human rights advocate. I think all of that helped in starting in Future Forum. So I don't think if I if had I done it a bit too early, that might not be successful. There must there could be obstacle to overcome. The finance, for example, is always a difficult the issue, the difficult one to overcome. We were somewhat lucky, but also we were a lot of these things are investments we have to make. The founder have founder have to every founder have to make. So we have to make these kind of investments. And also I had the time. I planned to I wanted to do a think tank for more than 10 years prior to that. So I had the times to learn, to question, to modeling as well. And so that that is so that's also necessary. But also when we started thinking of that's always there's always uh uncertainties for sure. But also in your own mind, you have to question yourself as well whether it's the right thing is an important thing, is necessary because you could easily just apply and work for another think tank that has already exist. When why reinvent the wheel when you don't have to? But if you decide that it has we we have to, then I think that would be the minimum criteria because then you see a gap. But also for me, a gap that hasn't existed in the past. It's not it's not something that has been vacated by vacated, it's it's just has not exist. Something similar did not exist, and so that that is what give me the passion to to do this kind of things.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:36

Without passion, definitely the organization would not survive. You had your profile from the work you'd done previously, and you had that reputation which helped get some early donor support to get it off the ground.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:49

And also when we recruit fellows without the reputation of my own profile, because the organization have no reputation, they have no profile. Yeah. So you have you de you depend I depend on my own personal profile and reputation to recruit fellows who wanting to join us, to to get partners who were willing to collaborate with us, to get donors willing to seed fund some of the initiatives.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:13

You had the profile, which helped you get the part the people, some of the seed funding. Of course, you had the idea you could see that it was needed. It wasn't about recreating the wheel, it was about a new approach, and yet you had the passion. Those were these key ingredients. Yeah. What were there some challenges early on, and how did you overcome them?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:33

There's a lot of challenges. I think the philosophy and the culture I'm trying to build already tells us how to address that. And that is, if you're focusing on the challenge and the obstacles, you're going to be stuck. And then you try to solve a challenge by not building a new model. So we're focusing on the future form is actually look at the model we want to see. And then our obsession is actually to build a model, not to fight any existing problems or obstacles. I think that's the key ingredient, at least for my organization. I would imagine that could be different for other organizations, but for us it's a key ingredient. We're basically applying the philosophy we're trying to, the culture we're trying to populate. And so that's very important. Because of that, we stay positive, right? We also stay forward looking. We're always looking forward, we're always looking toward the future, but also we're looking for solutions. We're also looking at at small ideas, small incremental change, small ideas that could have the greatest the biggest impact. And then so the thinking needs to be on overdrive. We have to think, we have to continue to develop better ideas, better models, better ways of doing things. So this notion of work not working smart and not working hard is somewhat applied, but you still have to work really hard on trying to work smart. You have to really put invest a lot of efforts to be smarter as an organization. And that is a culture build, not just and not just constantly minding yourself, but also then instill that to the early people, the people who actually join you early on.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:07

So that's how you you sustain things, that constant thinking.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:11

Yes, constant questioning of every single thing, questioning yourself, making fun of yourself, making fun of everything else, making fun of success, making fun of praise is being handed to you, recognitions and all of these successes. You have to learn to just enjoy it, but also don't take yours don't take yourself too seriously. Sometimes laugh at our own self and laugh at our own failures and our own success. And then just say, okay, I enjoy the whole process. That's more one for one.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:42

So what so if there's one thing you wish you'd know before starting, what would it be?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:52

I don't know if I can say anything on that one because had I known too much, I might not be willing to try crazy amount of things, right? Had I I been through this before and then go back and try it again, I would be too rigid, and I might know I might not be. See, I might develop the right model, but I might not understand why I would that's the model I chose, right? I choose. And when I made these mistakes and test and play and try and fall and try it again and do something else, I now whatever models I come up with, I felt like I I also understand why we chose that. Out of the many things that's possible yet not workable.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:35

So you so actually you couldn't have come up with what you've come up with and the success that Future Forums enjoyed had you known all of these things.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:44

Yeah, I think I hadn't known it, I probably wouldn't even understand. I wouldn't truly understand it. I would probably think I understand, but I wouldn't truly, truly understand it and appreciate it. And that's really crucial for longevity, right? Because if you once you understand it, you enjoy, as I said, you enjoy the work, you enjoy the process, validation and affirmation from others are really important, but it's not the most important ingredients to to to work, right? So so that's the sort of things I think is it needs time and process. That whole what do you call this the the goods and the ugly process of developing an organization like ours. The good, the bad, and the ugly. That's exactly so one actually one of the ingredients to to success, I would say. I think one important ingredients. I'm always looking at the also at the worst case scenario, and that is what's the worst case scenario for an organization, not for myself, but for an organization like Future Farm, and that is completely sh gets shut for various reasons, whether it's legal, whether political, whether financial, whether other reasons. And I would say I was from the very beginning, I had to really train my own self to accept that as an okay option. Now, when you understand that as an option, now you're much more in power. You can be more principled, you can take more decisions that could be then could be how to say more with more confidence. That okay, because you know when you make decisions, you don't know. There's no guarantee. There's only guarantee decisions you can make on your own, but there's never a guarantee outcome. There's no guarantee that other people will respond in any way. And the confidence to make decisions means that the only way to do to have that confidence to make decisions is actually when you accept that if the organization can't shut down, I can live with it. And that was really crucial, I think, in in in the longevity and the impact of the organization and understanding that. And I think that's one key ingredient, I think, in founding an organization, particularly in in an environment like Cambodia.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:01

Final question then, really. Looking ahead, what are your hopes for future forum and for Cambodia?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:06

Number one, I think the culture that we want to build, we want that to be to last. Right? We want that to not just last, but also to spread. The organization is just a it's just an identity, it's just a brand name out of thin air. It's just it's there. The organization is it's just it's just it consists of a whole of a few um uh different things, but but I think the most important one things would be the ideas we push, the young people we have worked with, the culture we built. Those need to be sustainable. They need to also expand. That's my hope. If the organization closed down in five years, but the vision and the ideas behind that and the culture behind that continue to spread, I would be more than happy. That means it's take off on its own without the vehicles. And that's okay. So looking ahead, we want that culture to continue, we want what we started to continue and hopefully expand. But we're hoping to see concrete transformative reform for the country in a positive way, in a stable way also. So that's really crucial. When we see our alumni or fellows became the first indigenous Cambodian person ever to get full scholarship to go to Australia for a graduate program, for example, that's amazing. But looking ahead, that means in two years I want to see what happened to him, what he's gonna do, how much how much change he's gonna bring, positive changes bring to the his the community, to Cambodia, but also to broader for the for broader humanities, and that's really crucial. So that's the sort of thing. So when we work with a a lot of LGBT fellows, for example, I want to follow their work. I want to follow their life story, right? As I I think as I think other people might follow mine. So I I think that's the that's crucial. They will be the one but there's a lot of they, that's a lot of them, a lot more of they than myself. So I think the I'm optimistic because of that, because hundreds of them now are working on multiple issues that might not been mainstream, might not have been popular. And that's to me is the yardstick. I think to work on something mainstream and popular, as a system thinker, you say if it's mainstream and it's popular, it's gonna be adopted, it's gonna happen. You don't really need to invest too much. If it's not mainstream, it's not popular, you really need to invest. And as a humanized person, you have to go back to that. You it's not your work shouldn't hinge on being popular or being mainstream to call success. And and so I think we need to go back to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:06

Uverak, thanks so much for spending time with me today, sharing your story. And we will be following you. We'll be following the fellows you mentioned, the individuals you've worked with to see where Future Forum goes, see where Cambodia goes, and uh we'll of course be staying in touch. Maybe we should get another coffee before we head. You can get another coffee, yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks so much, and see you next time.